[Y]ou know, if you have to work that hard to ‘invent’ something like a ‘right’, it pretty clear evidence that there is something wrong with your reasoning. I’m an aristocratic egalitarian libertarian. We obtain property rights from one another by mastering violence and organizing to apply that violence against anyone who would interfere with our contract for property rights. See how parsimonious that is? Occam’s razor and all that? Because it’s true. You earn your rights only by the ancient exchange of the promise to protect all who claim property rights, from those who would deny them.
Category: Commentary, Critique, and Response
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Libertarian Non-logic Of 'Rights'
[Y]ou know, if you have to work that hard to ‘invent’ something like a ‘right’, it pretty clear evidence that there is something wrong with your reasoning. I’m an aristocratic egalitarian libertarian. We obtain property rights from one another by mastering violence and organizing to apply that violence against anyone who would interfere with our contract for property rights. See how parsimonious that is? Occam’s razor and all that? Because it’s true. You earn your rights only by the ancient exchange of the promise to protect all who claim property rights, from those who would deny them.
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Libertarian Non-logic Of ‘Rights’
[Y]ou know, if you have to work that hard to ‘invent’ something like a ‘right’, it pretty clear evidence that there is something wrong with your reasoning. I’m an aristocratic egalitarian libertarian. We obtain property rights from one another by mastering violence and organizing to apply that violence against anyone who would interfere with our contract for property rights. See how parsimonious that is? Occam’s razor and all that? Because it’s true. You earn your rights only by the ancient exchange of the promise to protect all who claim property rights, from those who would deny them.
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A Better And More Logical Libertarian Answer
(controversy warning) (reposed from original site) [I] would argue that the gay community successfully suppressed the visibility of its promiscuous behavior once the chance for enfranchisement became possible. Furthermore the leadership changed the message from a request for tolerance of public promiscuity to one in favor of equal rights, marriage and stability. With the genetic, or at least in-utero cause of homosexuality identified, the idea of putting youth at risk disappeared – leaving only the problem of promiscuous behavior. [T]he purpose of boycotting is to suppress undesirable behavior in favor of beneficial norms. Marriage is one of our most unnatural states, but most beneficial norms. In fact our moral codes are dependent, first and foremost, upon our family structures – which is why different family structures cannot politically cooperate. Different family structures means different property rights and different demands for state intervention. Since it was promiscuity that violated norms, and the general fear of further attacks on the family that mainly drove resistance, then BOYCOTTING WORKED. That’s important to grasp. BOYCOTTING WORKED BETTER than libertarian universal particularism. WE WERE WERONG. [C]onservatives are right on norms, and we are not. Cosmopolitan (rothbardian) ethics cannot compete against traditional familial ethics. They can only undermine the hight trust society and require that we return to totalitarianism. Freedom requires homogenous ethics. Heterogeneity simply increases the necessary demand for teh state. BOYCOTTING is a necessary device for enforcing the heterogeneity of norms that make the high trust society, and low demand for state intervention possible. That’s just how it is. Period. This isn’t a preference. It’s a logical necessity.
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A Better And More Logical Libertarian Answer
(controversy warning) (reposed from original site) [I] would argue that the gay community successfully suppressed the visibility of its promiscuous behavior once the chance for enfranchisement became possible. Furthermore the leadership changed the message from a request for tolerance of public promiscuity to one in favor of equal rights, marriage and stability. With the genetic, or at least in-utero cause of homosexuality identified, the idea of putting youth at risk disappeared – leaving only the problem of promiscuous behavior. [T]he purpose of boycotting is to suppress undesirable behavior in favor of beneficial norms. Marriage is one of our most unnatural states, but most beneficial norms. In fact our moral codes are dependent, first and foremost, upon our family structures – which is why different family structures cannot politically cooperate. Different family structures means different property rights and different demands for state intervention. Since it was promiscuity that violated norms, and the general fear of further attacks on the family that mainly drove resistance, then BOYCOTTING WORKED. That’s important to grasp. BOYCOTTING WORKED BETTER than libertarian universal particularism. WE WERE WERONG. [C]onservatives are right on norms, and we are not. Cosmopolitan (rothbardian) ethics cannot compete against traditional familial ethics. They can only undermine the hight trust society and require that we return to totalitarianism. Freedom requires homogenous ethics. Heterogeneity simply increases the necessary demand for teh state. BOYCOTTING is a necessary device for enforcing the heterogeneity of norms that make the high trust society, and low demand for state intervention possible. That’s just how it is. Period. This isn’t a preference. It’s a logical necessity.
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I’M CRITICIZING ROTHBARDIAN ETHICS, NOT HOPPEIAN INSTITUTIONS CRITICISM IS LIMIT
I’M CRITICIZING ROTHBARDIAN ETHICS, NOT HOPPEIAN INSTITUTIONS
CRITICISM IS LIMITED TO ETHICS AND CLAIMS THAT PRAXEOLOGY IS A SCIENCE RATHER THAN A LOGIC.
I criticize the NAP and Rothbardian ethics because they are insufficient in scope for the rational voluntary formation of a polity (of other than sociopaths). Rothbardian ethics are parasitic. High trust ethics are productive. And no polity has EVER chosen parasitic ethics. Gypsies, Jews, and to a lesser degree eastern europeans and mediterraneans as well as Arabs and some nomads practice parasitic ethics outside the group, but not within the group. No group can persist (cooperate) under in-group parasitism.
My solution is to define property as people define it by their actions, not as it is defined by intersubjective verifiability (hoppe’s definition).
THE NECESSITY OF THE COMMON LAW AND A UNIVERSAL DEFINITION OF IN-GROUP PROPERTY RIGHTS.
And the reason this definition of property matters, is that all libertarian institutional solutions are predicated on the assumption that a constitution defining property and requiring the common law, is sufficient ‘government’ that no ‘government’ capable of making laws need exist.
Without the common law libertarianism fails to be ‘rational and calculable’ since without a common definition of property, disputes over property rights are unsolvable by rational means.
Now I also argue that in addition to the common law, and a definition of property as people demonstrate property by their actions, no group can compete economically against other groups unless it can produce commons. And that the production of commons requires prevention of free riding, socialization of losses and privatization of the commons and gains from the commons.
HOPPEIAN INSTITUTIONS ARE THE ANSWER TO MONOPOLY BUREAUCRACY
But that is not a criticism of Hoppeian libertarian solutions to the problem of monopoly bureaucracy by the use of competing private insurance companies rather than that same insurance provided by the monopoly bureaucracy that we call the state.
The problems with the state are (a) law-making (command issuance) given that laws cannot be made, only discovered, and (b) the self interest of all members of a bureaucracy and the unavoidable predation that results from bureaucracy. (c) Technically speaking the errors of democracy and majority rule are properties of one form of government, and not government per se.
LIBERTARIANISM AS FREEDOM FROM CONSPIRATORIAL IMMORALITY: FREE RIDING BY THE BUREAUCRACY.
I’ve been criticizing ‘stupid-tarians’, and ‘immoral-tarians’, ‘coward-tarians’ and ‘libertines’ of late, masquerading as libertarians. If you follow a rule based ethic (the NAP) rather than the outcome of human actions in producing liberty, you are really quite stupid, honestly, because it is quite clear that (a) the NAP is a failed test if we limit property contestable in court to ‘private property’, because it’s non-rational for people to choose an immoral and unethical polity and as such they will not eliminate demand for the state under NAP. And (b) because it’s pretty obvious to all but autistic and immoral people that the NAP permits – legally – immoral and unethical behavior: thefts via indirection, deception and externality. (c) that only outcomes, not observance of rules determines the success or failure of any set of rules. And Rothbardianism is a failed, ridiculed, illogical, immoral, ethical system.
So, libertarian then means ‘working for liberty that is logically and empirically achievable. If it means something else to you, then you’re just a stupid-tarian, immoral-tarian, or libertine, and not a libertarian: one who places liberty above all other moral values.
If libertarian means stupid, unethical, immoral, cowardly, and libertine, then we must rescue liberty and the terminology from the stupid, unethical, immoral, cowardly and libertine.
Liberty, as a brand, as a meme, as a term, and as a political objective, is not open for capture by the stupid, unethical, immoral, cowardly and libertine.
That would be immoral.
Curt Doolittle
The Propertarian Institute
Kiev
Source date (UTC): 2014-04-03 10:33:00 UTC
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ASPIE-TARIANS, STUPID-TARIANS, IMMORAL-TARIANS, LIBERTINES AND LIBERTARIANS
ASPIE-TARIANS, STUPID-TARIANS, IMMORAL-TARIANS, LIBERTINES AND LIBERTARIANS
Source date (UTC): 2014-04-02 13:27:00 UTC
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Thank you for being you, Alex. 🙂
Thank you for being you, Alex. 🙂
Source date (UTC): 2014-04-02 06:38:00 UTC
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PISSING ON THE TERMINOLOGICAL FIRE-HYDRANT If Lou wants to claim ‘libertarian’ a
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/lew-rockwell/what-libertarianism-is-and-isnt/LOU’S PISSING ON THE TERMINOLOGICAL FIRE-HYDRANT
If Lou wants to claim ‘libertarian’ as the name for a political movement that advocates lying, deception, and general scumbaggery, then why should we morally allow the term liberty and libertarian to be associated with lying, deception, and immoral scumbaggery?
Sorry. The origin of liberty is aristocracy, not parasitic low trust, lying, cheating, dishonest scumbaggery.
Liberty isn’t your fire-hydrant Lou. You had your chance. you picked an immoral ethical code and failed. You picked a pseudoscience and failed.
It’s time for the next generation to try to do better.
Sorry man, but Rothbardianism is a dead cat bounce.
Source date (UTC): 2014-04-01 11:16:00 UTC
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IS A VIRTUE NOT A VICE – ANOTHER CRITICISM OF FREE-RIDING LIBERTARIANISM AND MIS
http://libertarianstandard.com/2014/03/26/against-the-libertarian-cold-war/VIOLENCE IS A VIRTUE NOT A VICE – ANOTHER CRITICISM OF FREE-RIDING LIBERTARIANISM AND MISCHARACTERIZED ARGUMENTS.
Anthony,
As much as I respect some of your opinions I’m going to jump all over this one.
—“….hardened their rhetorical loyalties.”—
This is the point precisely: do we base liberty on rules independent of consequences, or consequentialist ethics that account for consequences? Immature minds require virtue ethics as a means of imitation in the absence of the ability to reason, mediocre minds rule based ethics to compensate for their lack of knowledge, and consequentialist ethics require we have a considerable knowledge at our disposal. So no, these arguments are not matters of loyalty but of ability to comprehend and use increasingly complex ethical arguments.
—“We might learn something from looking back at the 20th century. During the Cold War, most western critics of state power erred too far in one direction or the other. There were some whose opposition to U.S. wars led them to soften their assessment of communist aggression. Free-market and leftist lovers of peace both made this mistake. At the same time, many who favored economic and political liberty often let their anti-communism translate into support for American militarism and the security state. This confusion pervaded Americans across the spectrum.”—
Again, this conflict is over the immaturity of rule based rather than more mature consequentialist ethics.
—“Meanwhile, many libertarians and almost all conservatives ditched their supposed attachment to skepticism of government power and signed onto the U.S. Cold War effort.”——
Conservatives never ditched their skepticism of government, they conducted a multi front war both outside and inside. I was part of the movement that developed the strategy to bankrupt the state. We saw the cold war military build up as parallel to the great society effort, and thought that by spending in both directions we could bankrupt, and delegitimize the Keynesian state. We could bankrupt the state internationally by bankrupting the communist movement, and we could bankrupt the european and american social democratic movements. The only people who were clueless were the libertarians. Except for immigration, data suggests the strategy would have worked. So yet again, libertarians were wrong. Immigration of peoples who do not depend not the absolute nuclear family for their moral and social order are always and everywhere a net negative for liberty.
—“This American project included dozens of coups and interventions, the instruction of foreign secret police in unspeakable torture techniques, murderous carpet bombings that killed hundreds of thousands of peasants, and wars that indirectly brought about the Khmer Rouge and the rise of Islamist fundamentalism, both of which also became directly funded in the name of anti-communism.”—
When has liberty not required the organized application of violence? When and where? Liberty was always and everywhere created by the organized exercise of violence by a property-demanding minority over the objections of totalitarian and communal social orders that dominate all of world history. Liberty seekers are outliers. Always have been and always will be.
—“Today’s polarization is all the more frustrating given that the bulk of American libertarians seem to agree on two major points: (1) the U.S. should not intervene in Eastern Europe and (2) Putin’s various power grabs are indefensible. Thus, most libertarians are not truly as divided as well-meaning Americans were in the Cold War.”—
I disagree that we should not intervene in Eastern Europe, but then I suspect my brand of libertarianism requires that I defend all property rights of anyone who desires to have them and defend them too. But unlike conservatives, libertarians refuse to pay the cost of liberty for others, and plead that they get liberty for free themselves. And libertarians wonder why we fail – everywhere and always to enfranchise all but the most idiosyncratic. Arguments in favor of “Rights” are appeals by the weak to obtain what they are unwilling or unable to pay for. You never see conservatives making arguments that ridiculous.
—“I easily identify four factions, not two: (A) There are people who outright defend Putin’s aggression in Ukraine and Crimea, and who otherwise downplay his autocratic tendencies; (B) There are those who agree that Putin is worth condemning, but who think it’s more important to emphasize the evils of U.S. interventionism; (C) There are those who agree that U.S. intervention is unwise and maybe even unethical, but who think it’s most important right now to emphasize Putin’s despotism; (D) There are those who outright favor U.S. and western intervention to stop Putin.”—
Mischaracterization. The point is not to stop Putin. It is that other people desire liberty, and if liberty lovers do not fight for one another’s liberty then libertarians are all talk and nothing more. All that talk is to obtain liberty at a discount. I cannot refuse help to those who demand it, in pursuit of freedom. The only moral use of violence is the provision of liberty.
(You do realize that you’re just arguing through a statist lens, rather than a moral one?)
—“A principled opponent of state power is tempted to say that in fact B and C are on one side, despite differences in emphasis, and A and D are two extremes flirting with nationalist statism. This is my position, although I will say that I have friends—good friends—who flirt with being in camp A as well as in camp D. It happens. And to make the point again, during the Cold War, any libertarian activist would have probably had some friends who advocated nuclear strikes against the USSR, and others who supported Soviet control of the Eastern Bloc. Both of these positions would have been completely immoral and disgusting—far worse than anything said by anyone in Camp A or Camp D today. Yet today’s Cold War replay is leading people to defriend each other in the name of Manichean struggle. The tendency of people to break ties with others over this will only increase the polarization and erode mutual understanding.”—
This is a mischaracterization. As a member of camp “D” I don’t, and we don’t, oppose state power in the advancement of liberty, I advocate liberty at all times. I see libertarians who will not act to advance liberty as free-riders (thieves). I oppose monopoly bureaucracy and democracy. A powerful private government using organized violence to militantly defend and extend liberty to all those who ask for it, is something desirable. That’s what Aristocratic Egalitarianism means: voluntary enfranchisement. It is the only possible origin of property rights. Belief isn’t action.
—“In both cases, the problem appears to be nationalism”—
Mischaracterization. It is the corrupt anti-propertarianism of the Russians against the citizens of a small poor country desperate to obtain freedom and participation in the market. Yes, the Russian east is allied with Russia but it is for economic reasons: membership in Europe means an end to the marketability of eastern Ukrainian manufactured goods – most of which are supplied to the Russian war machine.
This small country had THOUSANDS of tactical nuclear weapons and THOUSANDS of warheads, and gave them up in exchange for promises of defense. Had they kept those weapons, they could easily keep Russia out of Ukraine. So Americans promised and lied. It’s that simple. Americans broke a deal. A deal that means possible economic enslavement,conquest and continued corruption under Russian imperialism.
What is more moral than fulfilling your contract? Or is that conveniently not part of your argument?
—“The arguments over Russia have brought the Cold War back to the movement. They have fractured those primarily committed to anti-interventionism and those primarily concerned with liberty for all worldwide, when in fact these values are two sides of the same coin. The primary libertarian reason to oppose U.S. wars, of course, is that they kill foreigners, that they divide people into tribes based on nationality, that they are acts of nationalist aggression.”——
Mischaracterization. Russia has brought back to life the war against militarily expansionist empires whose economic policies are a threat to liberty and prosperity. Russia cannot complete economically but it can militarily. That’s its advantage.
—“Discursively, refighting the Cold War within libertarianism will only harden people’s hearts, polarize their loyalties, and ultimately compromise their principles and clarity of thought. I plead young libertarians to refuse to be a proxy belligerent in this Cold War when for the most part it’s probably not really about Russia or Crimea at all; it’s about major factions within the movement with more fundamental disagreements using this as an opportunity to fight. If you actually seek to understand everyone’s positions, you’ll be surprised how heterogeneous attitudes are, despite the attempt to turn this current affairs disagreement into a grander sectarian dispute.”——
Actually, no. Rekindling the war against totalitarianism and anti-propertarianism will assist us in reforming libertarianism from an immoral parasitic cult-philosophy argued in conflated obscurantist, continental pseudoscience, and to return it to aristocratic egalitarianism we call the protestant ethic.
I want this fight to continue to help reform libertarianism because we’ve failed. The pseudoscientific libertarian movement of the 20th century has been by all measures a catastrophic failure. We have not made a dent. The newest generation is more libertarian, but that is not because of our success – quite the contrary. It’s because of the failure of the left and right majorities. So this fight over Russian aggression is part of the necessary reformation of liberty, and the restoration of liberty to its martial origins. The source of liberty is the constant application of violence for the suppression of free riding in all its forms. Everyone else is a free rider. A thief. A fraud.
—“So what should we think? “—
We should think that the organized application of violence in support of people who desire liberty is a moral obligation, because it is that reciprocity that makes liberty possible for any and all.
—“It is hard to maintain the right level of nuance and principle.”—
Only if you mischaracterize the problem. 🙂 It’s quite simple really. Most moral and ethical problems are simple if you don’t mischaracterize them.
—“unifying enemy is aggression”—
Exactly. But one is not aggressing in response to an act of aggression.
—“Allies… Trolls…”
Actually Anthony, it tells us who makes cogent arguments despite personal cost, and those who make selfish arguments justifying their free riding and who mischaracterize the conflict as one over rules rather than one over consequences.
Curt Doolittle
The Propertarian Institute
Kiev.
Source date (UTC): 2014-03-31 07:27:00 UTC